Curse

Epinephrine · Nov 07, 2005, 04:16 PM // 16:16

A good tank is likely anything BUT a W/Mo. SInce most parties have a monk the monk skills are redundant, and the healing better accomplished by the monk(s).

Better choices for a tank are: Evasion/Blocking (skills/stances); blindness (signet/throw dirt/dusttrap/spells); weakness/curses to reduce damage (shadow of fear, weakness); armour boosts (enchantments, stances); skill denial (Soothing images, sympathetic visage, energy denial) and so on.

I'd go so far as to say that the best tank is probably not even a warrior, if you have control over the party make-up. Rangers for example have outstanding armour vs elemental damage, and the range of a GC is huge, so you could easily be within the effects of a GC and have all damage elemental. The best stance then becomes Dryder's Defense, providing 75% evasion AND up to 62 AL. With Oath shot as an elite and a quickening zephyr up you can maintain the dryder's defense indefinitely; using winter you could easily thus have 182 AL vs everything with 75% evasion, without tapping into a secondary profession. Throw a secondary on there to reduce damage further and you have a pretty resistant player, and all it needs is a second R/* or */R in the party to support you. If people get creative with their build they can achieve a lot.

So an R/* or */R with
Greater Conflagration
Quickening Zephyr
Winter

and a R/* with Fur lined armour, a +defense bow,
Oathshot
Dryder's Defense
Throw Dirt
Troll's Unguent (why not, it's 9 pips and you have the stat maxed anyway)

is already pretty good. Armour of Earth, Shields Up, Symapathetic Visage, Shadow of Fear, any of these will help out. I like trying to find new solutions, and ths potentially offers one.

4runner · Nov 07, 2005, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Heres a build i use pve/pvp/gvg

iM A WARRIOR/MONK

1.BONETTIS
2.CYCLONE AXE(for bonettis)
3.DOYLAK SIGNET
4.GLADIATORS DEFENSE/DEFY PAIN/BATTLE RAGE
5.MEND ALIMENT
6.REMOVE HEX
7.HEALING SIGNET
8. ENDURE PAIN

NOw i know this has been done before, im not taking credit for this build or anything. THis is a good damage absorbing tank, he is only built to absorb damage thats all, take all the attention from the softies, it works well with a good group, weaknesses are apparent but thats only if your groups sucks!!

He is the agrro leader, nothing more!! Not for damage but to absorb damage!!
let the real damage dealers do there job!!

Humbly,

Battle Torn · Nov 09, 2005, 10:27 AM // 10:27

Epinephrine....Racthoh.... seriously though.....

I cant speak for peoples arrogance if they believe themselves to be invincible W/Mo and some arguments do have some merit but the same could be said about most people you meet. Combinations of skills for a W/Mo work better than most others to sustain survivability and therefore coin the term 'tank'. There can be no argument that w W/Mo is the best tank and if you have had experience to contradict my statement then you just haven’t used your build correctly for best effect. I also think too many people are a little upset if their build doesnt seem to be the best at everything! The only healing skills I use are mending and healing breeze. Healing breeze negates damage most of the time and mending gives you the ability to regen while using stances (and -2 dmg with shield). Mark or healing hands gets you out of a tight spot and by the way.... what’s with the 'reminded of their place' comment? who do you think you are to be telling others what their place is?....omfg!
I preffer a build that doesnt rely on others to survive beacuse generaly you can all work better if the monk doesnt have to keep an eye on only the warriors heath most of the time. I admit there are other builds that do more damage etc but there seems to be a 'noob' tag over every W/Mo build and its usually out of jealousy for being able to tank, run and farm the best...end of.

Racthoh · Nov 09, 2005, 10:55 AM // 10:55

If I was playing with a warrior who had 12 healing prayers, there would definately be some problems in my mind. That warrior has be to told what that W stands for next to their name, and the reason why they have that big pretty platemail armour for. Those would be the people that need to be reminded of their place in the party. If all we needed were /mos then we wouldn't need to take two monks everywhere now would we.

Healing Hands works nicely... if you're being hit by physical attacks. Spells don't trigger it, and if you're using stances than that is a rather ineffective use of two skills. Mark of Protection is the latter, and far superior, but as I've said most w/mos go with healing prayers. Breeze and mending... easier to just to take 0 from a high AL IMO.

As far as running is concerned, I could care less. Farming, I have yet to hear of a w/mo that can solo UW but I do know of a w/n that can. As far as tanking is concerned, innovation is what gets me and I prefer to play with someone who has an interesting combination of skills that can get the job done just as well if not more effectively as a w/mo.

Battle Torn · Nov 09, 2005, 11:25 AM // 11:25

Ok fair points.

no one said a W/Mo should have 12 healing though.. that would be stupid and no one I have met has done this. I have 8 which is highest I would go for this skill giving mending at +3. I also have 12 sword and 12 strength and 9 tactics. I have platemail except for knights gloves with major absorption etc and also -2 dmg from shield so I can usually take a load of damage and Im usually the last man standing in my team even though Im usually in the thick of it. Sometimes I take rez just for this fact. My weapons have either a zealous or a +3 -1 vamp mod (both with) +15%>50 and +7AR against elemental and I switch between these for better effect. In the end I suppose it boils down to two groups of people... the innovators who like to try new builds and the other people who use what they know works best for them and (and this is really important) ENJOY playing, but this doesnt make them noobs or lazy. People (often other warriors) see me usualy the last standing and ask me details on my build etc so I know Im doing something right. There shouldn’t be any snobbery about unique classes that may or may not function any better or worse in the end after all were all playing the same game, but hey you have your right to your own prefferences as I do, so fair play.

One last point worth mentioning...a W/Mo isnt expected to be a party healing build just self sustainable.

Epinephrine · Nov 09, 2005, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battle Torn

There can be no argument that w W/Mo is the best tank and if you have had experience to contradict my statement then you just haven’t used your build correctly for best effect.

I disagree. I have had tanking W/Me that easily outlast W/Mo, just as an example, or W/E clay soldier builds.

Now, if what you are saying is solo survivability, that's a bit different, but a tank in a party isn't a soloist - he's there to soak damage and maintain aggro. I'd rather see him maintaining a Life Attunement on himself than a mending, for example, as the life attunement will boost all the heals on him, making the job that much easier for the monks. So long as people use solo builds for team expeditions they'll be less effective - granted, more resilient when you have crappy parties. If you can count on your healer you can be a better tank than a W/Mo. SO, for run of the mill tanking with pugs, sure, a W/Mo is reliable - for a tank in a specialised party I can think of better combinations.

Racthoh · Nov 09, 2005, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battle Torn

Ok fair points.

no one said a W/Mo should have 12 healing though.. that would be stupid and no one I have met has done this. I have 8 which is highest I would go for this skill giving mending at +3. I also have 12 sword and 12 strength and 9 tactics. I have platemail except for knights gloves with major absorption etc and also -2 dmg from shield so I can usually take a load of damage and Im usually the last man standing in my team even though Im usually in the thick of it. Sometimes I take rez just for this fact. My weapons have either a zealous or a +3 -1 vamp mod (both with) +15%>50 and +7AR against elemental and I switch between these for better effect. In the end I suppose it boils down to two groups of people... the innovators who like to try new builds and the other people who use what they know works best for them and (and this is really important) ENJOY playing, but this doesnt make them noobs or lazy. People (often other warriors) see me usualy the last standing and ask me details on my build etc so I know Im doing something right. There shouldn’t be any snobbery about unique classes that may or may not function any better or worse in the end after all were all playing the same game, but hey you have your right to your own prefferences as I do, so fair play.

One last point worth mentioning...a W/Mo isnt expected to be a party healing build just self sustainable.

Well put, I highly agree that enjoyability should above all else be what each of us is looking for. Probably why there are so many solo monks, they may not have been very innovative in their builds, but if that's how they want to play so be it. Same with runners. I may not like the whole idea but thats how people want to play so be it.

If you're the last one standing, than I know you're doing something right.

striderkaaru · Nov 09, 2005, 07:12 PM // 19:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

If you're the last one standing, than I know you're doing something right.

hehe. i tend to disagree. as the group tank, if you're the last one standing, then you failed. completely. as i said before, i would much rather stay and draw aggro and fight to the death to give the little monk a chance to run away to safety and rez the rest of the party afterwards.

there's nothing more dismal than surviving a battle, looking around, and seeing the rest of the party dead.

anyway, with all of the arguing aside, i think that an interesting point came up that may be worth discussing. which (defensive stances aside) would be more effective for tanking: damage reduction via armor or damage patching via heals?

this is essentially the crux of the discussion regarding w/mo's and other sub-classes. w/mo's can heal themselves, whereas other classes rely on damage reduction.

of course, the ultimate tank would have stances, additional armor, and self heals. however, since your skill bar is limited to 8 slots, you won't really be of much use otherwise.

i'm in favor of damage reduction (since i run a w/e and a w/me), but i'm sure it would be interesting to discuss anyway.

Racthoh · Nov 09, 2005, 07:34 PM // 19:34

Well, if he is the last one standing, HE is doing something right... the rest of the lot need to know when it's time to flee.

I've always been in favor of reduction every since reading that +5 armour is better on a weapon than +30 health. Considering that one is always in effect while the other only kicks in when you get to 30 health. Logically, it just makes more sense without doing the math.

If you look at it in that context, it doesn't matter if you finish the battle with 5% health or 50% health. If you're health is dropping at a slow constant speed, it makes the monks job easier because they won't have put you as a top priority (not that they should have to anyway). Mind you, I would still prefer that I never have to waste a monk's energy there are times when things can get a little overwhelming and the aggro didn't go as planned.

The purpose of heals is to get the ally out of a threat zone. By having a higher defense, you won't reach that threat zone as many times in a battle, and thus you won't require those heals as often. A warrior, regardless of secondary, can raise his/her defense quite well and in some cases never reaches that danger area at all in the skirmish.

The unfortunate part is that a while a high defense IMO works in the majority of situations, the crucial times are when it just won't cut it. Spiteful Spirit, Empathy, Holy damage, chaos damage, etc... none of which an infinite amount of defense could reduce. In which case you have very options to counter these situations. Healing, naturally, Shielding Hands, Mark of Protection, Protective Spirit (to some extent), Life Barrier, and I believe Aura of the Lich. In which case, self heals would suit these situations just fine. But is specializing against sources that a high defense can't prevent against worth the allocation of skills?

Battle Torn · Nov 10, 2005, 08:58 AM // 08:58

Anyway I just wanted to say that if a your a tank and your last standing then it doesnt mean that you fail as StriderKaaru said. There are many reasons why a tank is last standing and its usually because the group dont allow the tank to be taking all the agro and thats not the tanks fault, they dont stay out of agro range when the fight begins and no matter how many times you ask them to stay put.... then show them how easy it is if your taking all damage and they then attack shortly after you start and nuke the whole group around you in the one place...they forget this 5 mins later and you have to make a decision...to either chase down enemies killing your monk or keep the majority of aggro in one place for the nuker. In Pvp its different ..its mostly down to how good the other team is. You cant protect everyone when real people change tactics time after time and its all about the team and how you react...not just the tank cos its a team effort and you have to get your bit right too

too many people think a good tank doesnt let anyone past em etc or can kill quickly or take massive damage with no support...whatever it is you decide you think makes a good tank then you apply this to everyone and some perfectly good experienced players you will class as a noob because they chose differently

Yukito Kunisaki · Nov 10, 2005, 04:04 PM // 16:04

I LIKE THESE ARGUMENTS...

Am I bragging?

Hell yeah I'm gonna do it if that's what it takes. However, it's not bragging if you can do it...

First off, my tanking capabilities and damage capabilites mix for one of the best blends of damage reduction and AoE [ARMOR IGNORING] damage.

So you're a Curses Necro who's MoP does 54 dmg AoE. That's nice. I'd like to see you take hits like I can though.

Can you cast Enfeebling Blood on a HUGE MOB? No. You can't. Why? Because mobs have to come together for you to make the most out of it. Who can bring said mob together? Yes. I, the W/N can...

I use a combination of Bonetti's Defense with 9s. of duration combined with Enfeebling Blood. Who the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO are you to say I can't tank a powerful melee mob?

Adrenaline problems? Cyclone Axe...

Do I ever run out of energy? No. My Enfeebling Blood lasts 15s. My Victory is Mine! has 15s. of recharge time... I cast ViM! when Enfeebling has been on for 10s.

My point? My tank is more efficient in doing damage and taking hits. Show me a class that can reduce huge damage to nearly nothing using less than 2 skills. Then you'll be showing me what it means to be efficient.

Can I do this strat to non-melee? Of course not. Then again, it's the non-melee targets I want my point nukers to hit. Single point spikes like Lightning Orb combined with Obsidian Flame and Immolate make for some damage I'm certain I won't top. But I won't care cause I can't get to non-melee targets. [last I checked in pve, they stay back while the melee targets rush the smart warrior]

I think it's absurd for someone to tell me, a nuclear tank, that I can't take hits or defend well when my skill combo allows me to survive FAR longer than no W/Mo ever will...

I also think it's absurd for a so called 'nuker' to claim that his MoP is so good when without me, it's not a nuke, it's a wasted hex...

For all you would be tanks who want to hurt something...

Don't listen to all the hubbub and bruhahah about tanks being weak. A real life tank in the real world can challenge an army and own it. Why can't a tank in a fantasy world do the same?

Oh yeah that's right, nobody wants to think outside the real world now do they?

edit* I forgot to mention that with my two skills, not only do I block 75% of the melee time, take about 30% of the damage that DO land, I gain 5 energy per hit blocked. I can't comprehend a 2 skill combo that works better than THAT....

striderkaaru · Nov 10, 2005, 04:12 PM // 16:12

i should probably explain my reasoning for my statements a little bit.

first of all, i'm not calling people noobs or anything, nor am i judging anyone's builds. also, i'm speaking in a strictly pve sense. in pvp, the warrior is almost always the last one standing. so yeah, pvp is different and shouldn't even be brought into the discussion.

although it may be true that, as a tank, you're definitely doing something right with your build if you're the last one standing, you're not supposed to be tanking for yourself but for the team. so yes, you are doing something right build-wise. but as the team's designated tank, intended to absorb damage for the squishies, then you have failed to do your job. whether it's your fault or not, it doesn't matter. it may not be your fault at all, but you have still failed to keep the hard hitters from your soft targets.

most often than not, it isn't your fault when something goes wrong. however, your ability to manage lost situations is what counts. in a team situation, tanking is more than just standing there and absorbing all of the damage in the world. it's also about watching the battlefield and knowing how to recover from lost situations.

you may have the best tanking build this side of tyria. however, consider a situation where (in the fissure) you begin to aggro a group of skeletal berserkers, bonds, and breakers, and you notice at the last moment that one of the casters is too close. in the split second you notice the berserkers run right by you, if there's nothing your build can do to help the rest of the team, then it has pretty much become useless at that point. your build might be really great, but as the "team tank," you fail. now, it wasn't your fault, but you should at least have contingency plans.

it's pretty much all semantics. in a battle where you are the last one standing, you weren't really doing much tanking since the rest of your party is dead because they took most of the damage first. or maybe you did tank a majority of the damage and the rest of the party just sucked. but what good is tanking then?

i have been in plenty of situations where i was the last one standing too, and i consider all of those failures on my part. people took me into the group expecting me to tank damage for them so they can stay alive, and i failed to do that. i may have survived, but the rest of the team is dead. this may be ok for all of the w/mo's out there with a reusable rez, but everyone else only has 1 rez. another situation like that, and it's pretty much over. i can't afford to be the last one standing. and i always say the same thing in situations like that: "sorry."

having a good tanking build is one thing. doing the job right in battle is completely different. a pure tanking build is useless if you're not the one taking damage.

but don't get me wrong here. i realize that it is a complete team effort, and if the casters don't cooperate, it makes the job a lot harder. that's why it's not necessarily your fault. but would you really want to be in teams like that anyway?

Epinephrine · Nov 10, 2005, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

...

I don't need to gather the aggro, I have a tank.

I don't need to waste my hex, I have a tank.

You are stressing how independent your build can be - big deal. My tank isn't meant to be an independent damage dealer/soloist, and we'll do damage faster if he sticks to his job and I do the hexing. I'm not saying it isn't a valid solo build, I'm saying a solo build isn't as good a tank as a team build.

Whatever. I know that I can destroy a mob pretty fast with 18(19) curses and a tank in there, tanking. Would an extra mark of pain help? Maybe, when he cyclone axed, but if he's going to be hitting one I'd rather it was mine.

Wyrmdog · Nov 10, 2005, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by striderkaaru

it's pretty much all semantics. in a battle where you are the last one standing, you weren't really doing much tanking since the rest of your party is dead because they took most of the damage first. or maybe you did tank a majority of the damage and the rest of the party just sucked. but what good is tanking then?

If the tank goes down it's a good bet the rest of the team will, too. I know that in other games, it's paramount to keep the tank standing because without him or her, the squishies get squashed. I've not enough experience with this one yet to say for sure, but it seems to be holding true.

Sometimes you can tank your heart out and things go wrong and it may not be anybody's fault at all.

So while being the last one standing is often a failure, the tank going down first can also be a failure. In neither case is this an absolute, however. If the goal is accomplished (I'm referring to critical, goal-centric combat, not run of the mill trash mob fights), the deaths were worth it and sometimes it is a tactical necessity to let someone - perhaps even the tank - die.

But what piques my interest is how you manage this aggro, how you keep it off the squishies.

Anyway, carry on. I'm here to learn.

jesh · Nov 10, 2005, 06:51 PM // 18:51

I've told my groups to stay back often after I realize they're all suicidal.. most of the time they ignore me, but last time I got a response like this: "It's no fun if you take all the damage and kill everything."

I didn't know how to respond to that, so I didn't. Let the monks deal with it.

Yukito Kunisaki · Nov 11, 2005, 01:39 AM // 01:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

I've told my groups to stay back often after I realize they're all suicidal.. most of the time they ignore me, but last time I got a response like this: "It's no fun if you take all the damage and kill everything."

I didn't know how to respond to that, so I didn't. Let the monks deal with it.

lol...

A Soloist with a team is more dangerous than just a soloist last I noticed. I don't have to worry about enemies killing me cause my already massive heal from ViM! is backed by a friendly competent monk. Possible hexes/conditions are also removed by a friendly monk.

By itself, a soloist build should be quite deadly, but why would anyone assume a soloer is "weaker" when he has a WHOLE team backing him/her up?

I could probably be a "perfect" tanker should I have teammates using Shadow of Fear and Blurred Vision on the mob that's attacking me. I don't see what the argument is about aside from "casters are the only damage dealers..."

It's just as snobbish for a caster to say "I only deal damage" just as much as it is for me to say "I can deal it too!!". If that's what you're thinking then all is lost...

The casters [all of them actually] always claim (FIRST) that a tank can ONLY take hits. That's not a very nice way of thinking and causes limitations to occur. If this game has limits, they can be broken merely by smart skill combos and raw game skill.

I didn't say that a Warrior can always out damage a caster first. All the casters said this first and what may happen is a flood of wuss warriors who can't be killed. You can be a powerful tank and do your damage too! That's the better higher level of thinking we warriors should be going about then listening to the self-proclaimed ULTIMATE damage people.

Why can't a tank AND a caster work together to destroy a mob? Sheesh...

Epinephrine · Nov 11, 2005, 01:59 AM // 01:59

Never said they couldn't. I always work with my tanks - I took issue with the claim of doing more damage than the caster. Enfeebling blood is a fine chouce for your build, as would be Shadow of Fear, as both the slowing and weakness are unaffected in their instensity, only their duration changes. The Mark of Pain however is better cast by a necromancer - if there isn't one, then I can see taking it, but if you have the option of a level 18 MoP over a level 10 the level 18 is preferable.

Yukito Kunisaki · Nov 11, 2005, 02:04 AM // 02:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

Never said they couldn't. I always work with my tanks - I took issue with the claim of doing more damage than the caster. Enfeebling blood is a fine chouce for your build, as would be Shadow of Fear, as both the slowing and weakness are unaffected in their instensity, only their duration changes. The Mark of Pain however is better cast by a necromancer - if there isn't one, then I can see taking it, but if you have the option of a level 18 MoP over a level 10 the level 18 is preferable.

Let's not forget that there are possible circumstances where you won't have a curses necro. Hey it happens.

For me, it happens about 100% of the time. I guess Necros are more interested in other things besides Curses. Makes sense to me. Curses serves me, a warrior with low e. pool and low regen just fine... If one doesn't have a high curse necro, then my warrior brings MoP. Which is again sadly, 100% of the time...

edit* well, upon looking at all the other possible AoE skills, their duration, e. cost, efficiency possibilites, if warriors COULDN'T use Mark of Pain, I think we'd inevitably BE the 'no damage, all meat shield' builds in pve ;_;

THANK YOU ANET FOR MARK OF PAIN!!!! ^_^

master_ranger_matt · Nov 11, 2005, 02:12 AM // 02:12

tanking is useless. i stick to my philosophy that offense is the best defense, and that tanking is pointless with all the other classes. I especially dislike w/mos that die because 1. U have to be an idiot to screw it up. and 2. u have to waste time and energy ressurecting them, even though they won't do much in the ways of dmage.

MultimediaJay · Nov 11, 2005, 04:26 AM // 04:26

I pack a surprise when I join a berserker tank in a mob. Balthazar's Aura + Symbol of Wrath. 320 AOE Damage ignoring armor, just from one little warrior.

If I stay behind as a 2nd line of defense, 200 AOE ignoring armor with B's Aura cast on the tank.

I've had times where I've Balthazared the tank in one mob then Symboled myself taking out the 2nd mob that didn't follow the main tank and tried to charge the casters.

Yes. Warriors sound easy to play out of the box, but you'll know a good warrior when you see one. As for me. I actually can take orders, including fighting ranged with a smiting wand if need be (I do that a lot with the Hydras on Perdition Rock, strafing around them making them waste their energy on Meteor Storm then running to them AFTER I see where they're dropping meteors

).

However, the easiest way to get me to leave a party is to diss warriors while my warrior is helping everyone out. Don't appreciate the help? Well bye then. You can find some noob that got himself ran from Ascalon to Thunderhead that will race into a bunch of Death Nova-ed Necros like a lamb to the slaughter.